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Mr. ROHRABACHER. This is a joke. I mean, you have to go to closed session to tell us where the weapons are coming from? Well, how about let's make a choice. There is Pakistan or Pakistan or Pakistan. Where do you think the Taliban-right as we speak-are getting their weapons. I have not read any classified documents. Everybody in the region knows that Pakistan is involved with a massive supply of military weapons and has been since the very beginning of the Taliban. Let me just state for the record here before I get into my questions that I think there is a-and it is not just you, Mr. Ambassador, but it is this Administration and perhaps other Administrations as well. I do not believe that terrorism flows from a lack of state control. A breakdown of state control, and all of a sudden you have terrorism. That is not what causes terrorism. What causes terrorism is a lack of freedom and democracy, a lack of a means to solve one's problems through a democratic process. Afghanistan from the very beginning, when the Reagan Administration was involved with helping the Afghans fight the Russians, which were engaged in trying to put a totalitarian government there; because of Pakistan's insistence, a lion's share of our support went to a guy named Hek Makti Argulbadin, who had no democratic tendencies whatsoever. And since the Russians left, the United States has not been supporting any type of somewhat free, somewhat democratic alternatives in Afghanistan, and there are such alternatives, and those of us who have been involved know that. So there is no democracy or freedom in Afghanistan where people who are good and decent and courageous have a chance to cleanse their society of the drug dealers and the fanatics that torture and repress especially the women of Afghanistan. The men of Afghanistan are not fanatics like the Taliban either. They would like to have a different regime. Only the United States has given-and I again make this charge-the United States has been part and parcel to supporting the Taliban all along and still is, let me add. You do not have any type of democracy in Afghanistan. You have a military government in Pakistan now that is arming the Taliban to the teeth. And in Kashmir, what have you got? You have got an Indian Government that supposedly is democratic, steadfastly refusing to permit those people to have an election to solve the problems there democratically. You have got Christians; you have got Seeks throughout India and Pakistan and Jamou where the people's rights are being denied them. It is a breakdown of democracy on the subcontinent, not a breakdown in state control that is causing the violence that threatens the world right now. Let me note that 3 years ago I tried to arrange support, aid, humanitarian aid to a non-Taliban controlled section of Afghanistan, the Bamiyan area. Mr. Chairman, the State Department did everything they could to thwart these humanitarian medical supplies from going into Bamiyan. And we have heard today that we are very proud that we are still giving aid to Afghanistan. Let me note that aid has always gone to Taliban areas. So what message does that send the people of Afghanistan? We have been supporting the Taliban because all of our aid goes to the Taliban areas, and when people from the outside try to put aid into areas not controlled by the Taliban, they are thwarted by our own State Department. Let me just note that that same area, Bamiyan, where I tried to help those people who were opposed to the Taliban, Bamiyan now is the headquarters of Mr. bin Laden. Surprise, surprise. Everyone in this Committee has heard me time and again over the years say unless we did something Afghanistan was going to become a base for terrorism and drug dealing. Mr. Chairman, how many times did you hear me say that? This Administration either ignored that or are part of the problem rather than part of the solution. Again, I am sorry Mr. Inderfurth is not here to defend himself, but let me state for the record at a time when the Taliban were vulnerable, the top person in this Administration, Mr. Inderfurth, and Bill Richardson personally went to Afghanistan and convinced the anti-Taliban forces not to go on the offensive. Furthermore, they convinced all of the anti- Taliban forces and their supporters, to disarm and to cease their flow of support for the anti-Taliban forces. At that same moment, Pakistan initiated a major resupply effort, which eventually caused the defeat of almost all of the anti-Taliban forces in Afghanistan. Now, with a history like that, it is very hard, Mr. Ambassador, for me to sit here and listen to someone say our main goal is to drain the swamp-and the swamp is Afghanistan-because the United States created that swamp in Afghanistan, and the United States policies have undercut those efforts to create a freer and more open society in Afghanistan which was consistent with the beliefs of the Afghan people. Mr. GEJDENSON. Will the gentleman yield for one statement? Mr. ROHRABACHER. I certainly will. Mr. GEJDENSON. I was wondering. During the time that the Administration supported the Taliban and created this policy, who was President during those years? Mr. ROHRABACHER. Well, there were several Presidents, and I would say that George Bush has to accept some of the blame, but I think the current Administration-no, the Taliban did not exist before that, Mr. Gejdenson. Mr. Gejdenson, one of the other myths is that the Taliban were part and parcel of the Mujahadin. The Taliban, as both of you know, were not part of the Mujahadin. The Taliban basically sat out the war and came on the scene afterward. Mu Omar was not a renowned commander in the Mujahadin.